From Global's newsroom at 8:00, the Home
Secretary is temporarily suspending new
applications from asylum seekers looking
to bring their families to the UK. Iette
Cooper has been revealing the
government's latest plans to tighten the
rules to deter small boat crossings. It
follows a summer marred with unrest
following protests against asylum
hotels. Danny Shaw, home affairs
commentator who used to advise Cooper,
told LBC there was nothing of substance
on hotels in her speech. What I wanted
to see was her setting out a clear
timetable with concrete measures about
how they're going to get that number
down from around 200 to zero. What we
need is every single month or every few
months, we need to see the total number
of hotels coming down.
>> Afghanistan's health ministry is asking
for international aid after a magnitude
6 earthquake. At least 800 people have
died. An 18-year-old boy has been
arrested on suspicion of murder after a
woman fell from a block of flats in
Southampton. He's being questioned by
detectives looking into Thursday's
incident. The UK has had its warmest
summer since records began in 1884. The
Met Office says the average temperature
was 16.1 Celsius, topping 2018's record.
In the city, the footsy 100s closed up
nine points at 9196. The pound buys $135
and15. LBC weather showers becoming
confined to northern and western areas
as well as southern coasts tonight.
Mostly dry with clear spells elsewhere,
but heavy rain in the southwest by dawn.
Lows of 10°. From Global's newsroom for
LBC, I'm Daryl Jackson.
>> This is LBC from Global, leading
Britain's conversation. Cross question
with Ian Dale.
>> Hello. A very good evening and welcome
to Cross Question. It's the first of our
new run. It's 2 minutes past 8 here on
LBC. Let me tell you who's on our panel
tonight. Uh over to my left we have
Steve Reed, Labour environment secretary
and MP for Stratum and Cuddon North.
Next to him is Andrew Griffith,
Conservative shadow business secretary
and MP for Arendel and South Downs. To
my right, Allison Phillips, journalist
and former editor of the Daily Mirror.
And to her right, Sir Martin Sorrel,
founder and executive chairman of the
marketing company S4 Capital. Uh he
became famous when he founded WPP, which
you've all heard of, the world's largest
advertising and group. used to be that
you see that's two barracks in
I've got trouble here ladies and
gentlemen if you would like to ask a
question to our panel 034560973
is the number to call and of course you
can watch us on global player and the
new LBC app
call 034560973
tweet at LBC text 84850
crossquest with Ian Dale this is LB BC.
>> Now, the eagle-eyed among you will have
spotted uh we are in a new studio. Uh
another reason for you to watch us on
Global Player or the LBC app. Let's go
to our first caller. It's Steve in
Manchester. Steve, very good evening.
What would you like to ask?
>> Good evening, panel. Um, do the panel
believe that the populist right, the the
roundabout painters, the the the hotel
harassers, will will they ever be
satisfied with anything that this
particular government can do on the
subject of uh migration?
>> Andrew Griffith.
Yeah, I think uh a government that
demonstrates it's got a grip and I
accept that that's been wanting for a
number of governments now um can restore
confidence that the government's got
control of the borders that we have a
fair settlement that we stand uh in the
place that we've been in the world and
that the British people which survey
after survey shows are some of the most
tolerant uh and welcoming people in the
world. But what what people the the
dissonance the reason why we are where
we are is this sense that the government
hasn't got control and sorry to Steve's
lot but I mean they came in and they
said they'd got a plan and people took
that as red that they really did. Um and
when governments don't look like they're
in control that's when people you know
take to the streets or whatever the
equivalent is painting round about.
There's not nothing, by the way, wrong
with celebrating your national heritage.
But if the if Steve's point is this is a
reaction to that, uh then just
governments need to get back and have
>> Do you think it is a reaction?
>> Yeah, I think it probably is a reaction.
I think I think we've probably been a
little bit we've not found the right
collaboratory for a long period about
celebrating our heritage. If I go to
France, if I go to the States, they're
much more forwardleaning in terms of
being proud of their history. I think
that's a long-standing, more deep-seated
issue. But clearly, you know, we've had
a hot summer. Uh, and that's been fueled
by the sense that the government hasn't
got a plan to deal with the migration.
>> Now, Steve, you're going to tell me you
have got a plan, but I was listening to
Ivette Cooper in the Commons today
making her statement, and it seemed to
me you could describe it as sort of
tinkering tinkering around the edges. It
wasn't something that could make a lot
of the people that are painting
roundabouts and whatever um think, okay,
well, let's give them let's give them a
chance. I think the first point is we
have to recognize the level of public
concern and in some cases anxiety um
about levels of immigration and that
that shot up really when the previous
government were running what amounts to
an open borders experiment given the
number the levels of people that were uh
coming into the country. So that is what
this government is trying to tackle and
the approach we've been taking is to get
um a strong deterrent uh to people who
are coming over here and the gangs that
are shipping them over here. Um
effective removals of people who have
come here who don't have the right to be
uh in the country and then preventing
crossings from happening. So on the
deterrent we've got the returns deal
with France uh that very soon we'll be
seeing people return back to France.
Initially it's a pilot scheme. The
intention is to ramp it up. that will
deter uh the people smugglers from
sending people across because they will
know that if they're coming um illegally
then they will be eventually sent back
whereas if they come through formal
channels comes into the country
>> is that much of a deterrent
>> it's it's a pilot scheme we got to see
how it works first then we can ramp it
up that's the intention but if you
compare that to the Rwanda scheme where
they spent hundreds of millions of
pounds to remove just four volunteers
ever this is a real scheme that is not
that is not a real scheme
>> when you accuse the previous government
of operating an open borders policy. How
do you then explain the fact that the
number of asylum seekers who've come
over the channel since your government
came to power is higher than it was
under the previous government?
>> You look at what we've got it in the the
the most recent month, August, it's the
lowest number of people coming across in
boats since August 2019. Looking at
August, August is usually one of the
peaks because the weather is calmer, the
weather, the weather is warmer. It's a
record the best since 2019. What we're
It was your But you know what? I saw
Robert Gener standing outside one of
those hotels blaming the Labor
government on the fact that we've got so
many peoples in hotels. It was Robert
Generick as the Home Office minister who
was boasting about opening the hotels to
put the asylum seekers in it. So, you've
got nowhere to go on this, Andrew.
Absolute rank hypocrisy. We're having to
pick up a mess and we're starting to put
in place the measures that will deal
with it. One of the things the home
secretary uh Iet Cooper was talking
about today was how we get um article 8
uh of the European Convention applied
more effectively um in the UK. We've got
a lot of people who are coming over um
illegally uh and who are then able to
bring family members citing article 8 of
the European uh convention. Other
countries don't do that. If you look at
Denmark or Switzerland, they require
countries to have people to have been in
their country for 2 years. so that
they're settled.
>> That's something you could change at the
stroke of a pen.
>> Well, and that's that's what Iette has
announced today. We're going to fix a
consultation. They had 14 years to
change it. They didn't change it at all.
Experiment. We are starting to fix that
problem. Now, you know, your caller
there, another Steve um there's a lot of
us about said, you know, very there are
very popular name actually.
>> Sorry, I meant popular. I meant popular.
pe people are right to be worried um
about the numbers of people coming into
the country illegally because if you
don't have borders you don't have a
country um ultimately we're proud of our
country want we want to secure our
borders but we also want to make sure
that people who do have a right to come
here or have a need to come here will be
able to come here this has always been
an open country who've always been
welcoming to those in need and we want
to retain that aspect of what it is to
be British but we should be choosing who
is coming in we need to manage our
borders so we can do it fairly. Um
Allison,
>> so I mean obviously you're always going
to have some people on the extreme right
who are never going to be happy with
anything that the Labor government are
going to do.
>> Is this just an extreme right?
>> It's not. So that's the thing. So you're
going to have those people there, but
actually what we're seeing now or
certainly have seen in the last few
months is more and more people who are
sort of would regard themselves as
fairly centrist who are who are feeling
this anxiety about immigration and this
and this anxiety about the country more
broadly and what it stands for. So but I
think I am actually quite positive about
a lot of what um Cooper has done. Now I
think what we have to understand is it
is in increments and it is small steps
but the way she operates and the way
this government operates whether you
like it or not is by being very good on
the detail. I kind of compare it with do
you remember the um the guy who won all
who who was the the head of the 2012
cycling and he said if we can increase
everything by 5% we will get to 100%.
And that's how we won all those medals
in that at that point.
>> The nudge approach.
>> Yes. And it and that is what we're
seeing now. That may well not be enough
for a lot of people who are painting
roundabouts at the moment because they
don't want little incremental changes
which might add up to something. They
want the big bang. They want the Donald
Trump. They want the executive orders.
They want the drama. They want it to
happen right here and right now. And I
understand that. And that's why there's
going to have to be consideration now
whether continuing with that sort of
incremental approach, even though it
might be effective, is going to be
sufficient. So there was nothing
incremental about smash the gangs,
right? I mean the in the way but the way
it's not criticizing any particular
government but the inference was this is
a fundamental failure of democracy and
control. The inference was Karma has a
plan. He gets it. He understands the
concerns of people painting roundles and
roundabouts and he has a plan to smash
the Here we are. No, here we are. We've
had a year of record. The only thing
that has been smashed is records for the
number of people coming to the UK. They
to be fair they have they have they have
released figures that showed that they
have I think they use the word disrupted
they've disrupted
>> was it 320 or 420 gangs gangs so that
that's something isn't it that that's
the highest figure that there's been for
many years
>> they've disrupted gangs and they've also
got working working with the French
police there is more action going on at
that side and we know that the the one
in one out is going to have an have an
impact
>> in one out it's it's 17 in one may be
out
>> but it's what we know but what we know
about that
>> even that is more than your
>> Rwanda scheme is that but also we know
that there is a deterrent factor and
it's not really helpful if we pretend
that none of the things things have any
value I can ar you could argue they
might not have the value that you wish
them to have but they will have a value
>> okay Martin
>> I think it's broader than all this stuff
I mean it's it's what what you're
talking about we see broadly elsewhere
pretty much around the world and it's a
concern about by the disenfranchised
or the um the the broadening of
inequality. We've been going on since
about the 1980s, the 1990s. And the
simple fact is this country is not
wealthy enough
and not growth conscious enough and not
growing enough to deal with these
issues. In a world where there's a lot
of uh fractious activity and
fragmentation,
we're going to have we're being faced
with this problem of immigration, not
just in the UK, but uh in a number of
countries. And there are people that
have suffered as a result of the in the
inefficiencies of globalization
or the um
the inadequacies of globalization.
there's not enough flexibility in the
system and what we're going to see with
AI and the growth of technology is going
to make it worse. So, uh I think you
know we we see we hear conservatives and
labor bickering about who's responsible
and the simple fact is from an
electorate point of view you're both
responsible.
Uh and I think the real issue is much
much deeper. So this is not about um
people painting roundabouts. This is a
phenomenon that we're seeing across the
world. You know, we're seeing we're
seeing demonstrations and disruption in
many countries in Europe, in Asia. We
saw over the weekend with Australia, New
Zealand, uh, and we're going to see much
more of it. And it's symptomatic, you
know, it gets dealt with in different
ways
depending on how wealthy and how growth
um, su how successful from a growth
point of view countries are. the US can
probably accommodate it more, but even
the US is is grappling with.
>> But do do you think Labor is getting any
aspect of this right?
>> Not at all. I think they're just as bad
as the tourists.
>> So what do you think they should be
doing?
>> That's the reason why reform is, you
know, apparently I mean it's much do I
think reform is a is a figment of
people's frustration? No, it's much
deeper than that. Now, do I do I sort of
think about recoil with horror at the
thought that Nigel Farage might end up
as prime minister? Yes, absolutely.
>> I think it's absolutely extraordinary
that he's in the position he is. Why is
in this position for these some of these
forces that I'm talking about trying to
to express. So, it's the frustration
of the inadequacies of the system.
Steve, do you accept that if you don't
get this right that if there isn't a
demonstrable
uh success in controlling these numbers
within the next 18 months, the game will
be up?
>> Well, I absolutely think we, you know,
we got elected on a manifesto a little
over a year ago now and we need to
deliver on the promises that we were
elected on. That's that's an absolute
>> You weren't elected. Let's be quite
clear about it for a minute. 54% of the
country voted
and what was it 1/3 34% of the 54% who
voted voted Labor. So less than 20% of
the country voted for Labor.
>> We have a parliamentary system.
>> Well that's the next election under the
same
>> the parliamentary system delivered a
government with a significant majority
when 20% of the country voted Labor. If
you if you look at the data around
people who voted people people who voted
lib dem or
green knew they were doing that and
going to get a Labor government. People
didn't vote green thinking they were
going to get a green government. They
voted green thinking it was going to
give them a Labor government. So most
people voted in a way that they believed
would end up with a Labor government.
This Labor government wants to be
reelected. We need to deliver on the
promises that we were elected on. So the
actions that we're taking now, including
making sure that international treaties
like the the European Convention are
applied in ways that are in tune with
the realities of the modern world are
applied appropriately.
>> Why do you have to have a consultation
on this? As Andrew said, why why can't
you just do it? Show a bit of leadership
>> because it's, you know, well, people
said that, you know, we were we were
looking at the water reforms that I was
responsible for. I want to get them
right. So I want to make sure that we're
engaging with people that might have a
view and something to say on it so that
we can make sure that when we bring it
in we've done that we've done
>> all you're going to have is much better
it's much better Ian to just wait a few
weeks and get it right than it only
going to be a few weeks because what
you're going to have all of these human
rights lawyers explaining to you why you
shouldn't be doing it
>> well we will move ahead we the home
secretary is very clear what she intends
to do the way that she's going to do it
she'll listen to views that are coming
in and we'll get it right rather than
rush ahead and get it uh and get it and
get it wrong but the the action that
we're taking is already starting to see
people being removed. We've removed
35,000 people already who had no right
to be in the country. That's something
like a 12% increase in the levels that
we were seeing being removed under the
uh under the pre under the under the
previous government. We've got the
removals scheme with France that is
about to go live. It will start out as a
pilot because we want to learn how it
works, but that will act as a deterrent
to people coming across the channel. The
prime minister said today the number of
hotels has halved from its peak under
the conservatives. We want to end the
use of hotels so we can use taxpayers
money on the things that taxpayers would
prioritize. We're taking the steps
towards that end. We have got a lot of
questions coming in so we'll ask for
shorter answers for the next couple of
questions. I'm not looking by anyone in
particular. Um it's 17 minutes past 8.
This is LBC. PC.
Cross question with Ian Dale. Watch live
on both Global Player and the new LBC
app.
>> 19 minutes past 8. Cabinet Minister
Steve Reid is here. Andrew Griffith from
the uh Conservative front bench. He
shadowed business secretary. Allison
Phillips, journalist and former editor
of the Daily Mirror and advertising
guru. Sir Martin Sorrel. Now you're
going to like this next question,
Martin. It's from Anthony in Ashford.
Anthony, go ahead. Hi.
>> Evening in the panel. Yes. Thinking
about all those famous campaigns and
trap lines of of past. How would the
panel relaunch uh um Saki's relaunch
today as it were? How would you this
flagging brand of Labor this last year?
How would you create a campaign to kind
of refloat it? There's your challenge,
Martin.
>> Wow, that's a that's a huge challenge. I
I don't think he managed to refloat it
so far today. And and I think I'd wait
if I was Kier until October.
>> Why?
>> Well, because of the the budget when it
comes will be another big downer.
So, I mean, there's a very little wiggle
room that the government has. We have a
cabinet minister here, so he he would
know um very little financial
flexibility.
So I would see that they're going to be
some big issues for the government after
October because they're going to have to
raise taxes or raised revenue in some
way, shape,
>> but that's an opportunity as well, isn't
it?
>> Well, yes. But I mean if you let's say
that we came up with the ideal slogan
you know a slogan like labor labor is
working isn't having to say labor isn't
working but but we came up with a big
slogan and we big campaign and we spend
a little bit of money on it
>> and reposition and October comes along
and I think that's that's going to be
the critical critical moment and and I
if I was here I would wait until I got
that out of the way because I think
that's going to be the hopefully the
bottom
uh the bottoming out of it and then you
go for a relaunch with labor is working
or whatever the right uh the right
tagline is. But I think it's a very
difficult position for
>> how how when you're involved in sort of
advertising and PR and you're tasked by
a political party
>> for to say that was involved in PR now.
>> No, no, no. Well, we'll come to Allison
in a moment. some interesting.
>> How how do you come up with these
different slogans sort of
>> you have great creative people
>> but is it literally 10 people around a
table brainstorming?
>> No. Well, if look my my involvement was
tangential. So I go back to the this is
this really dates me Tim Bell Gordon
Reese Charles Sachi Morris
um you know I the honest answer we don't
know Jeremy Sinclair where those were
sort of Bill Muhead they were the four
or five or six people that they were
account people creative people strategic
people uh and it's you know it's very
interesting question in an era of work
from home and work from anywhere
when some businesses are in the office
let's say 3 days a week or even less big
question is whether the human creative
input and output
>> is as good as it used to be I I think it
states me but I think it's getting less
so the answer is it's the friction
>> creative friction between people that
creates it
>> um big controversy in a
>> bit like newspaper headline writers
Allison so what's your what's your
answer to question.
>> I think if I was doing a rebrand at the
moment, I think I would do something
around Labor, we've got your back.
Because I think all those things that
Martin was saying earlier about the
anxieties that sit behind all this,
which is the impact of globalization,
people really concerned about AI and
what's going to mean for their jobs, the
idea of their children be able to afford
a home, all these things that
contributing to this sense of anxiety.
What they want to see from this
government is and really in some ways
people aren't bothered about where the
money comes from. They just want the
government to fix it. And they want that
sense that we have a government that is
there and is and is supporting them
through all these really really quite
anxietyinducing issues that people are
facing at the moment and and immigration
obviously being a chief one.
>> They want a way forward.
>> They want they want a way forward but
they want to feel secure security. I
mean, there has been a big plank of this
government security,
>> but I think what's needed now, although
that kind of intellectual sort of level
has been there, people haven't been
feeling it, and they've got to feel that
that is now there.
>> So, we've got your back. That's the
theme, Steve.
>> Yeah. It was only July of last year that
people voted um for this government.
>> Yeah, but you've had about four
relaunches
>> on the basis of on the basis of change.
You know, we live in a we live in a an
age of insecurity. I think you pic you
picked the right you picked the right
word there. Um people felt insecure
about their borders, about their income.
You know, in my area, water, the water
was full of sewage. Um people saved,
people wanted change. People voted for
change. And I I don't think we should
move on from delivering the change that
people uh people voted uh people voted
for. So know Kier was quite clear today.
You know, we've had our first year that
was about fixing the foundations. Now we
want to move on to be much more clear
about delivery and I think that means
people feeling the change that's
starting to happen.
>> You think people feel the change?
>> I don't think yet. No, but you know we
we have you can look at the the numbers
4 million more NHS appointments than
they were before. Four interest rate
cuts which has cut people's mortgages
just today. Um you know they do 30 hours
free child care. That's going to save
families with young children £7,000 a
year. But they don't feel it yet. It
hasn't fed through yet. So, we've got to
keep going. We were elected to bring
change. We are delivering that change.
People don't feel it yet, but you don't
just give up. We're we're making it
real. We want people to feel it in their
lives. So, I think that is what we
should be focused on. BBC radio this
morning there was a a woman who was um
pregnant and was going to give birth
couldn't find a nursery school I think
up north a nursery school place for her
kid when that kid would be born in 9
months time or whatever it was and I
think what people feel is the resources
we have available
uh don't match the promise so that
slogan of change
People wanted change for the not change
for the worse and and on so many
aspects. We've had change for the worse.
It's it's worse if you're a farmer.
Thanks to Steve's party
hang worse if you're trying to run a
nursery because of Steve's government's
attack on national. No, no, no. These
are just made up figures.
A national you talk to any nursery. Come
to my constituency and talk to a
nursery. talk to them about the change
in the national insurance threshold that
is absolutely clobbering their ability.
>> Andrew, with respect, we're I want you
to answer the question and sort of take
your conservative hat off. If you were
>> if if you were advising the lady
>> I'm not a fan of this I can't I'm not a
fan of this prime minister. Look, if he
was I mean if he was if he was a brand
it would be that terrible BA tail fin,
right? You remember it was all mishy
mushy. You you stepped away from the
national pride in our carrier. started
putting all sorts of all sorts of
nonsense on the BA tail fin and and look
I mean flag in his living room he hasn't
got he look I'm I'm delighted Steve
survived the reshuffle look the prime
minister doesn't right he doesn't have a
plan he could eight different reshuffles
don't really have a grand prage when
when it comes to when it comes to one of
>> the time that we've had this one prime
minister in office I'm stepping away
from that totally eimeical when you
Look, when you when you think about the
challenges that we've got, one of the
biggest challenges is the 9 million
people of working age out of work. An an
economy that is not growing, a society
that's heavily indebted, even the most
timorous attempt to reform the welfare
system. I mean, timorous, I mean, really
not not even moving the dial. The Labor
Party couldn't contemplate getting that
through. And if that's the sort of and
and you know we all have to do things
that you don't want to do in government
and that's leadership. It's a difference
between just being in government and
actually having a mission and trying to
lead the country somewhere. And on
welfare reform after nearly one year
with a you know record majority
squandered that why isn't why isn't the
economy growing? Well, we all remember
Liz Truss's kamicazi budget. You were at
a great time that was three years ago.
You backed the kamicazi budget that
crashed the economy. It crashed the
pounds. It sent people's mortgages
shooting skyhigh. Sent prices in the
shop skyh high. You were one of the
treasury ministers that did do that you
can sit. So many parts of Steve's
economically illiterate run are
genuinely worried
for somebody who is a minister of the
crown. The reality is you knew it all
well didn't you Andrew with the Kamaki
budget. Fantastic. That
>> what's the 30-year guilt trading at
today?
>> Yeah, I'm not going to be blustered
around by you throwing terms like that.
The most important crash the economy.
It's the most treasury minister the most
important number that everybody did that
everybody in white should be focus and
it is higher today. Why did you back's
budget which get it wrong because people
listening to this is mortgages shot up
because of your decision and you're
trying to blame and what you did
>> Steve it's higher today than it was at
the time. It's higher that today than
any time in 30 years. That includes all
the trade trials with the Bank of
England, LDI, all of the mini budget,
all of that. And that is the number that
is going to define the success of this
country and this government. And you
don't even know what it is. You don't
even know
that they've had since this government
came in and the sky interest rates that
you engineered through your disaster as
a treasury minister.
>> Why is that why is that borrowing number
the amount that the government pays to
finance our country? Why is that number
higher today then? Steve,
>> why did you get the economy so badly
wrong?
>> We we can't go through the rest of the
program with you two asking each other's
each other questions.
>> Nice about nurseries.
>> Oh, if you must.
>> I have two nieces that have both had
children in the last year and they are
able to go back to work and if to make a
difference and this is to normal people
this thing on nursery provision is
making a huge difference. And I think it
is so easy to keep looking at this is
bad and that's bad and that's terrible
that we have to we have to highlight the
things that are good in ordinary
people's lives as well.
>> Yeah. But I think this is a a serious
issue if we look at our clients
generally and how they see the UK visav
the rest of the world. It's not good
news.
>> In what way? Well, you know, if you look
around the world, I spent a couple of
weeks in in Asia and last couple of
weeks in India, in Korea, and in
Singapore.
And I look at Singapore, I mean, it's a
high cost economy, and it's it's a big
issue, the cost of living in Singapore,
but everything works and the
infrastructure is strong. And we came
out of we came out I wanted I was a
remainer but we came out of the the
common market out of the EU and we had a
shot according to the the Brexiteers to
get it right. Singapore on temp
Singapore on steroids whatever and we've
got it terribly terribly wrong. And if I
look at our clients, whether they be
tech clients, whether they be automobile
companies, whether they be package goods
companies, you know, if you if you laid
out their priorities,
their priorities would be North America,
South America, the Middle East, Asia,
where beyond beyond Europe.
>> But in the fintech sector, in the AI
sector, we're not leaders.
>> No, we're not leaders. Well, we are. No,
no, no. You know what they're saying?
have the second biggest
Americans innovate, the Chinese imitate,
and the Europeans and the UK regulate.
>> Well, that may be true, but it is not
maybe true. It is a fact. It is a fact
that Britain has the second biggest AI
sector in the economy in the whole
world. We have an AI sector that is
bigger than the rest of Europe.
Now most of the companies end up being
absorbed by you know the unicorns which
is what we're referring to end up being
absorbed by America. We we don't have
it.
>> You remember when when Rishy
>> you can say we don't as much as you like
but I know the figures and we do.
>> Bletchley Park was it ran ran that
conference? What was the the theme of
the conference? It it was regulation. It
wasn't it wasn't about innovation. I'm
sorry. Well, I I totally agree that we
overregulate in this country, but I
think we need to do a bit more of what
Addison just did and actually talk up
our own country sometimes rather than
just run it down, which we are world
professionals at.
>> We're not we're not professional running
around. Why is it that companies are not
prepared to invest? Why is it the
productivity in this country has not
improved over the last
>> We still have more investment into this
country than any other European country.
Regardless of what you say about Brexit,
>> that's not not relative not relatively
to where it where it's being invested
elsewhere. I said to you,
>> well, that may be, but we're in France
Germany. We're better than Italy. We're
better than Spain. Why don't we Why
don't we sing about that? Back me up.
>> Best of the poor bunch.
>> We we had that we had that session at
the Guild Hall, didn't we, last year
where we had global investors coming on.
They want to invest in the UK. Just the
sector that I'm one of the sectors I'm
responsible for is the water sector. We
secured at the end of last year 104
billion pounds to be invested over five
years. It started in April uh of this
year. That's the single biggest
investment in our country's history just
into the water sector. Now that's great
because it means we can start fixing
those broken sewage pipes that are
leaking sewage into our rivers. But it
also means good well-paid jobs in every
single region of this country putting
money back in uh people's pockets. That
means better lives for them, more wages
for them. It means more money into the
exjecker so that we can refund those
broken public services.
>> Growth running at the moment.
>> Well, it's it's it's better than it was
forecast.
But we picked we picked up an economy
that had flatlined for a decade. We
started to put in place. We've started
to put in place the measures as it is in
the pay rise that they want and that
will bring in the investment from
overseas that that we need to get.
>> Why are people leaving the country in
record numbers?
>> People are not leaving.
>> Well, I don't know. They are. You need
to look at those statistics. I think
they were slightly
>> right. Okay. Okay. I'm being told off
because we're 3 and 1 half minutes late
for the news. So, let's let's rectify
that, shall we? Because it is 8:33. News
headlines with Daryl Jackson.
>> The home secretary is temporarily
suspending new applications from asylum
seekers looking to bring their families
to the UK. Iette Cooper has been
revealing the government's latest plans
to tighten rules to deter small boat
crossings. A 13-year-old boy has been
arrested after a 12-year-old boy died
after falling from a roundabout in a
playground. Cheshire police believe
Logan Carter died after the wheels of an
ebike were used to propel the roundabout
in the park in Winsford on Friday. And
the Met Office has confirmed that this
summer was the UK's warmest on record.
The mean average temperature was more
than 16° C. LBC weather showers becoming
Lows of 10°.
>> This is LBC.
This is leading Britain's conversation.
Cross question with Ian Dale. Alexa,
send a comment to LBC.
>> 8:36 on LBC. Uh, somebody's texted here.
I wish we had people like Martin Sorrel
in charge.
>> It's my brother.
>> Yeah, I thought it might be. Right,
let's uh go to another question. We have
Martin Sorl with us, Allison Phillips,
Andrew Griffith, and Steve Reed. Uh,
Scott is in West Hamstead who asks this.
Education Secretary Bridget Philipsson
has told parents that they must ensure
that their children attend school
regularly. What strategies should local
education authorities, headteers, and
teachers employ to ensure that peoples
do attend school regularly?
Um Allison, you said you've got nieces
of
>> Yeah. And I have children as well that
have to attend school. Um so the numbers
are getting better, aren't they? I mean,
it was after COVID there was a real
problem with getting kids back to
school. Um a lot of them got out of the
habit. We've known there's been a huge
mental health crisis in this country. So
I think rules are really important for
young people. I think they have to stick
to those rules. But I also think there
is an issue around mental health and
young people. I think the government
could have done more around mobile
phones in in schools. Anything can make
schools feel secure and places they want
to be and they want to learn has got to
be a good thing.
>> Martin, sorry it's back to the office.
part of those those stats show that
Friday is a particularly bad day because
a lot of parents are off out of the
office and Mondays as well. So I think
it's not about kids at school.
It in part it is and the impact of covid
but the majority of the the issue is
around in the office days in the office
you know we as a company. Do you think
if kids see parents at home, they think,
"Well, if you're at home, why can't I?"
>> It's it's practical as well. You know,
you're at home, 3-day weekends, 4 day
weekends. So, I think the question is,
it comes back to what we were talking
about. You asked me about where does the
creative spark come from? It comes from
people engaging with one another. We're
not all coders who can sit at home doing
coding and talking to a screen. we have
to talk to and interact with people
whether it's a business like ours or
Allison's or partly what Ellison's doing
at the moment or elsewhere. So I think
the heart of the problem is the the
changes that took place. They were
accelerate accelerated by CO not caused
by CO that just accelerated progress. We
we as a business have just under 7,000
people and I would say it varies from
region to region but basically it's
three days a week and I'm not happy
about that. I I've gone through a a
change on it. All the academic analysis
that I've seen interestingly points to
working from home, distance working,
distributed working. You know, all the
stuff I see from Harvard Business School
for example suggests all the academic
research shows according to the
professors and associate professors that
it works. I don't think it does. I think
we we lose a lot by that interaction and
the kids see that and it's a reflection
of that.
>> Steve.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, strangely enough,
back in the day, I used to run a local
education authority because I was a
council leader, and we did a lot of work
on this. And one of the things that I I
can still remember and it would be the
case now, too. Not all schools had the
same level of problem with this. And
that's because different schools take
different approaches. And the ones that
were cracking it were those schools
where they really engaged closely with
the parents, with the children to
understand what was happening in each
individual household uh that was causing
a particular child to arrive late or not
come to school at all on some days. And
sometimes it would be something
relatively simple. I remember a head
teacher once telling me there was a
family they didn't have alarm alarm
clocks so they weren't waking up in time
to get the kid ready. In other cases,
there would be much more serious things
happening um in the uh in in the home.
You know, there would be problems
between um the parents or the
relationship between the parents and the
children. It needed something a bit more
profound in terms of an intervention.
But it was those schools that really
developed that close understanding and
relationship with the parents that were
getting it right. And I think we can
learn from the example of the best and
then share that out to the uh to the
other schools.
>> Andrew.
>> Yeah. In the interest of time, two
words, inspirational heads. I mean I bet
they don't have a challenge with school
attendance in Michaela. Put Katherine
Burbal singing in charge of it.
>> Not all schools can be like I mean it is
that a very very absolutely very
successful school diverse
>> but that it does seem to be the only
school that people point to as sort of
having a brilliant track record.
>> In every other listen in every other
domain of life that's exactly how human
civilization advances right you build a
successful advertisation you get copied
you get emulated. I mean, we we we're so
in the public sector, we're so loathed
to actually call out a beacon, a
success. It's it's why our public sector
is nothing like as productive as it
should be.
>> Right. Text question from Kieran in 's
court. Is the row surrounding Angela
Raina's tax affairs an empty attack on a
workingclass woman who's done well for
herself or rightly calling out rank
hypocrisy? Um, I mean, this has been a
story that's been going now for a couple
of weeks about Angela Raina's supposed
three homes, one of which she doesn't
own. It's it goes with the job of deputy
prime minister, which I you'd have to be
pretty odd to begrudge her that. Um,
Steve, do you want to kick us off on
this?
>> Yeah, I mean, this is absolutely a gotup
story, and I'm afraid Andrew's party has
played a big role in um in in in
whipping it up. There's no question of
Angela Bray having broken any rules or
any laws whatsoever in what she's doing
here. She, like many people today, has a
complex family uh arrangement. She's
separated from her husband. They needed
to make appropriate arrangements for the
children, and I don't think it's it's
right to dig more deeply into their
personal um arrangements than that. No
rules have been broken. She's done
nothing. I think there is quite a lot of
the attacks that come against Angela
Raina because she is an articulate
workingclass woman and some people don't
like to see that.
>> It is a little odd though that she's
classed this flat in Brighton as her
main home when her constituencies in the
Northwest and she lives in London during
the week.
>> I said without without
>> she hasn't broken a rule. You're right.
>> I don't there's no rules broken but I
don't need to go into the detail of her
family life. There are children involved
here. She's had to make appropriate
arrangements. She's done what is best
for her family. No rules have been
broken. She's complied with everything.
No laws have been broken. This is just
yet another attack. And we see many
against Angela because she is a
workingclass woman who's done very, very
well and represents her community, her
constituency incredibly powerfully.
>> Andrew,
>> um, Steve's read very well his lines
given out by central office. I tell you
what, Andrew, before you get all cynical
and partisan, Andrew is a close family
friend of mine and what I just said is
absolutely Before I've said before I've
said a single word you're doing what
politicians too many politicians do I've
not said a single I've not said a single
word Steve you keep interrupting me. You
keep interrupting me. I've literally
I've literally not said a single word.
I've not even got the words Angela Raina
out. To me what this just shows us is
just how complicated a tax code is.
Right? We got inheritance tax over here.
We've got people saying there should be
second home taxes over here. Council
tax. It's all just far far too
complicated. I don't know what Angela
Rain has done. I don't know what many
many people do. But what I do know is
that we've created a tax system that has
all sorts of perverse incentives. And
and the only thing I can say in terms of
politicians is just transparency, right?
When I mean this happens in corporate
life as well, right? When when it's all
too complex and you can't explain it and
you start citing court orders, you just
have to make a clean breast of it. I'm
sure she's done nothing wrong. So just
come forward and just say it. Everything
comes out anyway eventually.
>> I mean you say the tax code and all
taxpayers are far too complicated. I
mean you were a treasury minister for
several years. You could have done so.
>> Oh I would have well listen I never had
that power. I was the city minister. So
I didn't even have the power over over
tax and and yes I mean I would I'm on
the record. I would I would love to see
the tax code simplified even apart from
the level of tax. It's just so complex
and it's very distortive to the economy.
All right, Martin, it's tax avoidance. I
don't think she did anything illegal
from what uh what I can see in here,
although she's not commenting anymore on
it because because it's in the courts,
but uh it's tax avoidance, not tax
evasion. But you know, those who live by
the sword die by the sword. and the
Labour Party have on many occasions
criticized people that famous court that
judges judgment that you know you have
the right to arrange your affairs in the
the way in to minimize tax. That's what
she did in this particular case and
she's she's fallen foul of of doing that
when the Labour Party have historically
criticized people for arranging their
affairs in that way. So it's not
illegal.
>> As I understand it, I don't think it's
even tax avoidance. She was living in a
constituency.
>> No, no, she's minimized. She minimized
the amount of stamp duty that she was
liable for.
>> But she she was living there. She's her
marriage has broken down. She's no
longer living in that home and she's
she's bought a house down in home. I
think primary residence there when
her crime is actually to probably do
what a lot of MPs did in the expenses
scandal where they took advice and they
were told this is perfectly legal and
this is what you should do. And I don't
think anyone
>> minimize exposure.
>> Yeah. As any normal person would. That's
her only crime.
>> But I mean she has broken no rules and
this is not the first time we've seen
them come for Angela Raina and it won't
be the last because she is a very
successful woman. She says it as she
sees it and a lot of people feel very
threatened by her.
>> Um, this idea of she's being attacked
though because she's a working-class
woman. I'm not sure I'd buy that
totally.
>> Did you see the photographs they used of
her to to to illustrate it with a vape
>> sort of very pale but fired? I think
most people wouldn't have taken that as
a bad picture. I think there's defin
Well, I think a lot I think a lot of
people the people that were using that
picture were hoping that it was
>> well maybe they did but I mean to me she
is one of the few cabinet ministers and
I would include you among this category
too who actually know how to get things
done in their department. I may not
agree with what she's doing a lot of the
time but she knows how to pull the
levers of power and you will know from
your own experience. you've only been
doing the job for 12 months, but
sometimes
>> ministers want to pull a lever and you
will have seen this, I'm sure, in the
treasury and nothing happens. And to me,
she seems to be somebody who can
actually make things.
>> She's really effect I remember I I was
when she was a a shadow secretary of
state. I was a junior shadow minister in
her team. She was the most effective
shadow secretary of state that I worked
for because she's very very good at
empowering and supporting her team.
>> Now looks up who else she worked for.
Hey
Right, we got lots more questions to go
and of course our fun question at the
end. It's 8:47 on LBC
>> LBC.
Of
course,
>> cross question with Ian Dale on LBC.
>> 8:49 on LBC. Kai in March in Cambridge
here has a question. Hello, Kai.
>> Tomorrow MPs will debate electoral
reform. Do you support getting rid of
first pass the post and replacing with a
form of proportional representation in
Mel and Westminster elections?
>> No. Um I'm not a career politician. I
came to it pretty late in life. Um and
the the thing that is the best about the
role is that individual accountability
to the electorate. So no no electoral
system is perfect. Um and mathematically
they all have all sorts of you know
weird results like the super majority
that we've got now. But I really like
that constituency link. I like the fact
people know who their voice is in
parliament and the fact that we'll all
trog around on a Thursday or Friday or
during recess. Uh and we're very
accessible to the people that we
represent.
>> Allison,
>> um I've changed my view on this and I do
actually think we should try moving
towards some kind of proportional
representation for all those reasons
that we've got a public that is feeling
very alienated from politics. It's
feeling very distrusting and I think
anything we can do to make people feel
that their vote is more meaningful has
got to be a good thing. Martin,
>> no. No, we shouldn't move to proportion.
What we should do is force people to
vote. They can destroy their votes, but
get them out. No. No. Comedy.
>> We fought so hard to get the vote for
ever. No, not madness. You should have
the freedom.
>> 54%. It was 58% of the electorate turned
out last time. In America, it's just
2/3.
People should come out.
>> They should. But why? I mean, why would
you make them Why would you make it an
offense? And it's ridiculous.
>> Why is it ridiculous?
>> Well, because we're made to do so many
things in our society. Surely, we should
have a choice as we
>> fall for women as well.
>> It's a right not to vote as well.
>> No, no, no. I don't buy that. You you
vote. You can destroy. But that wasn't
the question. You can spoil you know,
but I'm saying not toortional
representation. keep it as it is and
make sure that everybody votes cuz this
lot got in
>> with 34% of 58% voting. It's less 20%.
>> I'm going to be ecumenical for once on
the show and agree with Andrew. Um I
think the constituency link is a very
important part of uh of our system. I'll
be out on my constituency in South
London knocking on doors on Saturday and
people will tell me directly to my face
what they think. In a lot of PR systems,
you don't get that. And I think in any
in any democratic system, you've got to
create coalitions that bring together
people of differing views to come to a
consensus about what they want the
government to do. In PR systems, you do
that after people have voted behind
closed doors. In our system, you do it
before you do it before people have
voted so they know what they're voting
for when they go to the ballot box.
>> I thought I thought, by the way, we were
going to get where the 16y old should
vote. I'm not
>> No, that we we don't want to do that.
That's that's already been decided. Uh,
but if anybody wants to ask that
tomorrow or Wednesday, feel free. Right.
Excuse me. Emma in Birmingham says,
"David Lammy insists recognizing
Palestine wouldn't be a reward to Hamas
for October the 7th. Do you agree?" Um,
Steve,
>> no, of course it's not a reward uh for
Hamas. Like all of us,
>> would this be happening if October the
7th hadn't happened?
>> Yeah, but all of us have seen what's
going on in Gaza. every everybody I mean
everybody is going to be repulsed by the
by the scenes that we are um seeing
going on there in Gaza if we want that
to stop if we want that kind of
situation and we've you know maybe not
on this scale but we've seen
conflrations um around Israel Palestine
happening again and again over over our
lifetimes and and before that as well we
have to get to a position where there is
a lasting peace only way that I can see
forwards for a lasting peace is a
two-state solution with a secure
Palestine living alongside a secure
Israel. Now, the current Israeli
government is taking actions that make
that much less likely to happen. What
they're doing with the the settlements
in the West Bank uh around Jerusalem
would draw a line that would separate
the integrity of a future Palestinian uh
state. And it's not just the UK
government that feels this. our allies
in France, in Australia, uh in Canada,
>> but at least they've had the balls to
actually say, "We will recognize a
Palestinian state." What your government
has done is to say, "Well, we'll
recognize it if the Israelis don't have
a ceasefire." I mean, you either believe
in something or you don't. You don't
have it contingent. One, we want the
Israeli government to stop behaving in
the way that they are in Gaza. I fully
recognize Israel has the right to
self-defense. I you know part of what
we're calling for is that Hamas must
release the hostages uh that they took
in that horrific that wasn't mentioned
when David Lamian
act I've I've just mentioned it uh I've
just mentioned it now but part but part
of that would be that the Israeli
government will work towards a long-term
peace solution that means a two-state
solution so it's not contingent in the
long term because it's only by securing
a free and independent Palestine
alongside a free and independent Israel
that we can guarantee the security of
both populations and that surely is what
we should be working towards. Andrew,
>> uh, two things because we're short for
time. Um, one is the people I feel not
most sorry fog and but but the you never
hear their voice properly are the
innocent civilians in Palestine, not
Hamas. So they are they are victims.
They're they're captives of Hamas as
much as anything else. And and the issue
I have with what the UK government's
done is is it's just done it
unilaterally. It's it's not sought
anything in return. Um it leaves Hamas
unreformed in charge of Palestine with
the innocent Palestinian people still at
their mercy.
>> Well, Hamas isn't in charge of
Palestine, is it? It's only it's only
been in charge of Gaza. It's never been
in charge of the West Bank.
>> No, but it's still it's still, you know,
make it's still calling the shots. And
what we don't have is a proper a proper
wellsupported authority, which is the
only way you're ever going to get peace.
You have two sides here, neither of whom
seem to want a two-state solution. Uh
>> I mean, that is the problem. So, I don't
think it's a reward for Hamas. Um, and I
think we have to do it to protect what
may remain of Gaza when this comes to an
end, if there is anything less. But it
is only one step towards the support
that is going to be necessary um in in
the aftermath. If if we ever get to the
point of an aftermath,
>> Martin,
>> it is a reward relief. And I think there
are 40 hostages still. 20 probably
>> 49 I think.
>> 49 is it? Half half dead half alive.
First thing return the hostages. Then we
see what happens.
>> But should should that I mean I've
criticiz
my point of view is non-negotiable that
you October the 7th.
>> Yeah. Have you se has anybody on this
panel seen the film the IDF film?
>> Okay,
>> just take a look.
>> But the problem is that I mean Hamas as
I said to Andrew, they're not in charge
of the West.
>> The idea, by the way, the IDF film
should be compulsory viewing.
>> You don't want to make a lot compulsory,
don't you?
>> Oh, yeah. Well, you'd have the choice to
destroy your ballot
and you could sit there and ignore what
you see, but they should be should be
shown.
Well, I haven't seen this film, but um
I'm I'm not sure I believe in compulsory
film watching.
>> Well, I think it should be made
available to people. I think I think the
Israelis have started to make it
available more available.
>> But is have you seen it?
>> But
>> have you seen it?
>> No, I haven't. No, but is
>> you before you judge see it.
>> The basic problem here is that the
Israelis do not want to or the Israeli
government, I should say, do not does
not want a two-state solution. Hamas
certainly don't want a two-state
solution. Now, the Palestinian Authority
um seems to be a complete irrelevance in
all of this, which which is bizarre to
say the least. And you now have Donald
Trump not even allowing representatives
of the Palestinian Authority to attend
the UN General Assembly, which um is pro
maybe a question for another time.
Right, let's go to our fun question from
Alfie and Doncaster. With the internet
having been a wash with conspiracy
theories over the weekend about Donald
Trump's health because he hadn't been
seen for a couple of days, where would
you take the US president to if he could
sneak away for the weekend again?
>> could he go up in one of Elon Musk's
space rockets perhaps and just stay
there for maybe slightly longer than the
weekend? Maybe by about four years.
Yeah. Martin,
>> I'd take him to Tanin, you know, with
Kim, with Putin and with Xi and Erdigan.
>> He'd love that.
>> He'd I'd like to see him play with them
in Tin.
>> What? Sorry. I
>> T Engine is where they got the Shanghai
Conference. That
>> right there. I see what you mean. He'd
probably feel quite at home, wouldn't
he?
>> Yes. Global.
>> Um, Andrew,
>> uh, I'm not sure this would be wildly
popular, but obviously everybody should
go away for a weekend in Arendor. We've
got it all. We've got castles, we've got
wetlands,
we've got the South Downs, we've got and
we've got a lot of history. Um because
the whole of West Sussex was where the
D-Day forces, Canadians, Americans,
Brits, Commonwealth, all marshaled for
many weeks in the run-up to D-Day. So
there's a lot of a lot of history, share
history as well.
>> If it weren't for Arendelle, I wouldn't
be sitting in this chair now.
>> Yeah. because I started on radio on a
station called Play Talk in Arendor and
that's the only reason I got an audition
at LBC.
>> I'd love to say the residents of Arendor
tell me about nothing other than Play
Talk and Ianale's debut.
>> Yeah. Well, I I can what he's saying
about Arendor South. It's a beautiful
part of the country. I would take him to
>> not as beautiful as South Cord.
>> Not as beautiful as Stretman Cordon
North. Thank you. Sorry. But I and
that's where I'm going to take him. I'm
going to take him to the Conquering Hero
Pub uh bang in the middle of my
constituency so he can hear some of the
folk wisdom of the good people uh that
live there and happily will instruct me
when there whenever I on those rare
occasions enter the doors of that pub.
Marvelous. Thank you all very much for
appearing on this very spirited first
edition of cross question in our new
run. On tomorrow's panel, we have the
Tory Pier and former deputy prime
minister, Baron Turres Coffee, the
Labour MP and chair of the Foreign
Affairs Committee, Dame Emily Thornbury,
the SMPP's leader in Westminster, Steven
Flynn, and the Financial Times political
editor, George Parker. Well, coming up
in the next hour, um Douglas Carwell,
the former UKIP MP, uh issued one of the
most disgraceful tweets I think I've
ever seen. And believe me, there's some
competition for that accolade today. I'm
not even sure I want to repeat it, but
it was overtly racist. And I called him
out on it and I said, "This is racist.